industrial.org

I'm pretty annoyed with people constantly talking about how freedom of speech and expression in America is a joke, especially people living in england, where they have the video nasties type shit. There are parts of europe that ban bondage videos and any type of non vanilla porn, places that still band fucking books. but america is the country that people talk about as being the great opresser.

I'm not saying that shit doesnt happen in America. Lots of rights get violated every day, and with shit like the patriot act, the government has done some really fucked up things to artists over the last few years. But those are isolated incidents, things that happen in every country, not the national standard.


As fucked up as it is right now with bush, America is still essentially free. You can talk about whatever the fuck you want, make a movie about whatever you want. is there stupid censorshp on television, yeah, is the MPAA silly as hell, yeah, but they dont make the shit illegal on a national scale. There are no laws that say any for of art is illegal, and as much as people seem to want to think otherwise, most people who say or make extreme art dont get fucked with by the govenment.

I'm not trying to imply that I completely know what its like in europe,or anywhere else. I've barely been out of the state i live in, let alone the fucking country. But this is how it seems to me. America is fucked up, but it really isnt so much more fucked than a lot of other places from what i can see, and there is a lot less artistic opression here than in the UK and other parts of the world, again judging from what I've gathered, and not physical experice.

• reply

posted by: Royce Icon on 2005-04-24 04:42:24
view other comments posted by Royce Icon

I think you are largely right Royce. But I also think that there are groups working right now on undermining these laws. One other thing: put sexually explicit art in the US on public ground =). Where I come from they put a giant penis in the sea making love with the waves....lol.

• reply

posted by: Random Insults on 2005-04-24 06:35:50
view other comments posted by Random Insults

er...just so you know......we have hadn't the video nasties thing since the eighties with a brief furore over it in the early nineties.

Also America still bans books. Extreme artists do end up getting harrassed by the America government. People with ideological differences get harrassed, imprisoned and otherwise silenced. This isn't to say that it doesn't happen elsewhere it's just your view of America seems a little rose-tinted.


There's also the fact that there isn't another country in the world that promotes itself as "The Land Of the Free(tm)". I think that is the main reason people take pot-shots at it on the freedom front.

• reply

posted by: Prenna on 2005-04-24 07:47:11
view other comments posted by Prenna

I once attended alternative school for four weeks in TX, where if you cursed a certain number of times you were sent to court and fined hundreds of dollars. I got sent to that school for allegedly saying something I didn't say to a friend, in private, with no proof other than an anonymous "witness" with a vendetta... what I allegedly said, in private, to a friend, wasn't illegal to begin with. I lost all faith in "freedom of speech" during that month. Granted, the problem isn't as bad in the north, but it's spreading like the plague. Pretty soon everyplace will be like TX. I seem to remember a woman getting thrown in jail down there for using her work computer for personal e-mails as well... land of the free. bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
Cheers,
William

• reply

posted by: --VVIIII/\/\/\-- on 2005-04-24 08:17:09
view other comments posted by --VVIIII/\/\/\--

I haven't heard of any books that have been banned here for a while. I know there was a big banning spree a while back..70's or 80's? I don't remember exactly. Anyway, I can read a copy of the satanist's bible at my library, and I know one or two book stores (not used or rare bookstores) that sell the Anarchist's Cookbook, which has recipes for bombs in it, among other things.

• reply

posted by: Dok V. on 2005-04-24 12:01:08
view other comments posted by Dok V.

I think you are largely right Royce. But I also think that there are groups working right now on undermining these laws. One other thing: put sexually explicit art in the US on public ground =). Where I come from they put a giant penis in the sea making love with the waves....lol.

lol, Where do you live again? Puerto Rico? I have GOT to come down there sometime to check that out. OMG that just made my day.

• reply

posted by: Dok V. on 2005-04-24 12:02:46
view other comments posted by Dok V.

They may not call it the video nasties anymore, but they still seem to have the same restrictions on a lot of content, at least movies. What books have the American government banned recently?
Plenty of stores ban things, but I havent read about the govenment actually saying its illegal to own a certain book. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.


Even saying that there is no longer any banning of books or films in europe, the fact that it existed in the 70s and 80s in the form it did is disgusting enough, and censorship never existed that way in america at those times. People got fucked with, people couldnt get distribution, films got cut and banned from stores, but the govenment never said It was fucking illegal to own or make anything in the same way.

My view of america isnt rose tinted at all, I know lots of fucked up shit happens here, I'm not trying to say it dosent. My general point is that there isnt more artistic opression here than in most other places, and some places are a lot more fucked.

• reply

posted by: Royce Icon on 2005-04-24 13:00:40
view other comments posted by Royce Icon

"lol, Where do you live again? Puerto Rico? I have GOT to come down there sometime to check that out. OMG that just made my day."

Well, I believe he's originally from Germany, so he may be referring to there too.

• reply

posted by: Royce Icon on 2005-04-24 13:02:34
view other comments posted by Royce Icon

Probably the biggest threat to freedom of speech in America is the dismantling of the media ownership laws by our government. Corporations buy up all the media outlets and bombard congress with lobbyists and free cash to keep the independants out of business. This is accomplished by our elected leaders who are selling out our rights for their own gain. Half a million dollars for broadcasting "indecent" material? Fox, Viacom or General Electric can sneeze half a million, a small independant broadcaster, who probably couldn't even afford to contest the fine, will be destroyed. But not to worry, ClearChannel will be there waiting to buy them out and put on another 24 hour advertising station.

• reply

posted by: :xrow: on 2005-04-24 13:52:17
view other comments posted by :xrow:

"government has done some really fucked up things to artists over the last few years. But those are isolated incidents"

"America is still essentially free. You can talk about whatever the fuck you want"

This is a good topic and one that applies to the the CD I've been trying to release. I've gone through 6 manufactures now that out right refuse to manufacture my latest CD due to the artwork. It features Bush in the company of a number of other people in a sort of montage but NO ONE will press it and I've just recieved word from my distributor that they'll have nothing to do with it even if it gets manufactured. My only option at this point is to remove the art from the release. It's frustrating beyond belief. I'm a complete no name asshole with a band most people don't even know of and I still can't get shit made... even in small 1000 unit quantities. This is just the most recent event I've had to deal with censorship.

6 months back a few of you might remember I was arrested by the NYPD and detained overnight in Central Booking in NYC for RIDING A BIKE. 5 days left before my probation is over. I didn't break a single law. It was a bike ride supporting the environment and the city got a bone up it's ass. Confiscated my bike for 3 months as well... my only means of transportation outside of public trans. Not to mention an illegal raid on a private establishment afterwards to arrest other riders they didn't scoop up on the streets. Even my attorney advised me NOT to communicate with him via email... because of the scope of the event he felt communications were being monitored.

Freedom of speech in America is bullshit. This is just the last 6 months. I could go further back in history but it would be a long story. It's free so long as you keep your mouth shut or have enough money to afford to open it.

• reply

posted by: t.o.t.s. on 2005-04-25 09:16:22
view other comments posted by t.o.t.s.

Yes, that thing is in Germany not in Puerto Rico. They would get a heart attack here because PR is full with catholicism and pentacostals. They do not like such art here.

Couple links:

http://www.nordwestreisemagazin.de/eckar...

http://foto.nordseebad-dangast.info/deta...

On another occasion they went with a helicopter and put i giant stick in the mud. Similar idea.

BTW, Dangast (the village where the thing is) was were German Expressionism was at least partially born. That might explain why they are so open with art there. 800 people live there.

• reply

posted by: Random Insults on 2005-04-25 09:56:50
view other comments posted by Random Insults

t.o.t.s,

I definitely think that the bicycle thing is totally fucked up, but it is still an isolated incident. it isnt the norm. I'm not saying it isnt relevant. I'm not saying it isnt injustice. just that it isnt the norm. but injusticies like that happen all over the world. its human nature to abuse power.

as for the album art censorship, I'm sure you can find someone to do it, just keep looking. lots of indie punk bands get anti bush stuff pressed. ane plenty of metal bands get extreme gore stuff.
Its just a matter of finding the right guy.

Maybe instead of freedom in america isnt a joke, I think my real point is that freedom in america really isnt much more of a joke than other countries.

• reply

posted by: Royce Icon on 2005-05-30 13:31:10
view other comments posted by Royce Icon

Maybe instead of freedom in america isnt a joke, I think my real point is that freedom in america really isnt much more of a joke than other countries.

Well... in Holland drugs are legal... in France they have a 35 hour work week, and a pretty damn impressive labor movement. In America you can get fired for shutting the door too loudly, and you're lucky if you can get by on 40 hours a week. hahahahahahaha... nah dude, Western Europe is definitely much more free than America. I'd hardly say that not being allowed to give the Hitler salute in Germany is a travesty... the 12 million innocent people that they killed is the travesty.
Cheers,
William

• reply

posted by: --VVIIII/\/\/\-- on 2005-05-30 13:49:34
view other comments posted by --VVIIII/\/\/\--

Sorry Gothstomper, but all that shit about labor movements and 35 hour workweeks doesn't neccesarily have anything to do with freedom (in this case, freedom of speech). We're talking, as far as I understand it, about the government and freedom.

As for that Holocaust reference goes...that seemed to me to reek of emotional rhetoric. First off, you're picking on an incredibly unpopular extremist group, and also, this was one of the few political threads that didn't mention Hitler, the National Socialist party, or anything of that nature at all. It completely rubbed me the wrong way and seemed like a red herring.

• reply

posted by: BLANK on 2005-05-30 15:08:55
view other comments posted by BLANK

"Sorry Gothstomper, but all that shit about labor movements and 35 hour workweeks doesn't neccesarily have anything to do with freedom (in this case, freedom of speech). We're talking, as far as I understand it, about the government and freedom."

Whether there is a direct correlation between worker's rights and freedom of speech is hardly debatable. One cannot speak up in the workplace anymore without risking termination. One has little recourse for unjust termination... hehehe, you try getting the government to raise the minimum wage, see how well you fair. The labor movement in America has taken a nosedive over the past 50 years. Workers no longer have rights. Period.

"As for that Holocaust reference goes...that seemed to me to reek of emotional rhetoric. First off, you're picking on an incredibly unpopular extremist group, and also, this was one of the few political threads that didn't mention Hitler, the National Socialist party, or anything of that nature at all. It completely rubbed me the wrong way and seemed like a red herring."

I'm not quite sure that I care if I rubbed you the wrong way on that one. I do not support or tolerate a political ideology that advocates mass genocide. Freedom of expression ceases to be an argument after you needlessly slaughter 12 million innocent people. The fact that The Nazi's are not allowed to showcase swastikas, or give the Hitler salute in Germany does not exactly bring a tear to my eye. Al-Quaeda is responsible for less deaths than The Nazi party... if you ask me, members of both organizations should be dealt with in the same manner. Frankly, the Nazi's have it easy. Germany is in no way violating it's citizens rights by not tolerating Nazi filth. If you ask me, they're too fucking tolerant of the little shits. I was under the impression that the Nazi issue had already come up in this thread. Perhaps I was mistaken (too lazy to check)... after all, as you acknowledge, the word Nazi has come up so many times on this site that I've lost count.
Cheers,
William

• reply

posted by: --VVIIII/\/\/\-- on 2005-05-30 16:18:12
view other comments posted by --VVIIII/\/\/\--