industrial.org

Hey everyone,

"Real" industrial (as in experimental industrial, old-school or power electronics) are notorious for having violent shows. The artist John behind Slogun says that he wants fights to break out at his shows, and in the old days Throbbing Gristle reportedly force-fed people LSD (or so I'm told).

I'm curious as to all y'alls opinion. Is violence okay at PE shows? I mean actual violence - not heavy-metal-style mosh pits that would never happen. I mean physical fights, with punches and stuff like that.

While I can appreciate the fact that PE is supposed to be the most extreme music out there, I can also understand people who just want to see the music and not get physically attacked. This is, after all, to some extent, music, not a battleground. I personally am a fan of a "do-not-cross-this-line" approach. IE, you can stand back and be safe, or you can cross a line and you might get in a fight with the artist or another fan.

What's your opinions?

Thanks,
Ik3

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posted by: BLANK on 2006-02-04 15:35:55
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If it's violence for the sake of violence then I give it a resolute thumbs down.

But if there is a valid artistic context to the whole thing then you'll find me more accepting......

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posted by: R-23 on 2006-02-04 16:29:09
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In a recent metal concert I and my GF got mushed over by some retard - we were both rolling around. Luckily (probably for me) the guys of Kapital 7 were next to me and were holding me back - I was going to commit one act of stupidity and get back at that guy. I hate it when violence happens at concerts. Music is supposed to be fun.

-kai

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posted by: Random Insults on 2006-02-04 18:32:45
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Speaking as one of the more violently inclined members of the forum, I have to say that violence at concerts is completely unwelcome, (unless somebody asks for it). I don't go to concerts to fight. I go to concerts to listen to music, (radical, I know). There's a very bold line in between the two.
Fuck art. If somebody's skewered idea of art involves my girlfriend getting her ribs broken, then he can take his "art" and shove it up his pork-shoot.
There's a time and a place for violence, and a concert ain't one of 'em. If the little shits who like to roll at concerts wanna fight they should take up boxing or MMA and do it the respectable way.
Cheers,
Will

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posted by: --VVIIII/\/\/\-- on 2006-02-05 13:06:59
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Speaking as one of the more violently inclined members of the forum, I have to say that violence at concerts is completely unwelcome, (unless somebody asks for it). I don't go to concerts to fight. I go to concerts to listen to music, (radical, I know). There's a very bold line in between the two.
Fuck art. If somebody's skewered idea of art involves my girlfriend getting her ribs broken, then he can take his "art" and shove it up his pork-shoot.
There's a time and a place for violence, and a concert ain't one of 'em. If the little shits who like to roll at concerts wanna fight they should take up boxing or MMA and do it the respectable way.
Cheers,
Will

I can understand that, but if two thugs want to fight each other, I say that they should go for it. Just keep me out of it. I don't think people who don't want to be involved should have the violence forced upon them, but if two fans want to do that to each other, I'm not going to stop them.

PS: Most pits =\= violence. That's "appreciating the music in a less passive way" and artfaggery.

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posted by: BLANK on 2006-02-05 13:35:24
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"But if there is a valid artistic context to the whole thing then you'll find me more accepting......"
Anything that gets a reaction is a valid artistic context.

I am not for limiting artwork in anyway, you are all right, music is for listening and enjoying, However a concert is not just music, its 2 forms of art, first the sound art then theatrical art.

One of the main concepts of industrial music is that anything is a valid artistic context and that the artist should not bend to the traditional values of the consumer. If an artist wants to encourage violence at his shows or act violently against anyone, I think he has a right to do so, when you paid for a concert you did'nt pay to listen to music, you payed to see a performance. Even if everyone going to an industrial show did'nt want any violence in the end I think the artist has free reign on what he does, when you pay to go to a performance you pay to let the artest do what he wants, not what you want him to do. Also probably the biggest aesthetic value of industrial/noise music is that of shock and awe and the beauty of violent, overwhelming, chaotic power, and perhaps violence adds to that, and who are we to tell an artist to stop something that enhances a pieces aesthetic value in his opinion. Art is not consumer based, its art based, (of coarse the cops have a right to arrest performer if he brakes the law)

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posted by: gacky on 2006-02-06 18:38:43
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As long as they can take what they dish out.

I'd rather not have a violent experience at a show. I'd like to focus on the band and listen to the music. I also don't consider pits to be a violent thing. I do like those and more often than not they're friendly. But for violence... if the artist wants to be violent and there are audience members that want to be violent to one another that's cool IF AND ONLY IF their violence is self-contained.

A few years back some fuckwad decided he was going to smash my girlfriend as he was inclined to have a violent fit at a Einsturzende Neubauten show. After I pulled my fist out of his throat he was crying to the security guards that I was out of control. If yer' gonna be violent, then deal with the results.

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posted by: t.o.t.s. on 2006-02-07 08:05:48
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I'm not into it. I go to shows to hear and see music, not to get beat up. John from Slogun has implied in interviews that it would be okay if people died at his shows, and that they should be expecting it, which I gotta say I think is pretty fucking stupid.

I mean sure, if this is a violent or dangerous band, or a band that has a dangerous live show like the eugenic council, you know what you're getting into, and i guess you expect it. But I'm not into the macho violence thing. I only dig violence in art for the most part. But if the artist want to hurt themselves, thats another story entirely...

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posted by: Royce Icon on 2006-02-08 15:52:50
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well, i dunno. I guess the "dont cross this line' thing is okay, but I dont think it is really that clear a lot of times. but if it is like that, and it is a clear and visible choice, and only those who want to fight will, then thats cool. but i dont think it can be contained in that way very well.

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posted by: Royce Icon on 2006-02-08 15:55:52
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"but i dont think it can be contained in that way very well. "

You're absolutely correct!

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posted by: t.o.t.s. on 2006-02-09 13:33:35
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If you want to fight join a fight club ;P

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posted by: Random Insults on 2006-02-09 13:42:15
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here's my opinion...

Most exp/PE/noise shows are EXTREMELY boring today -have you seen Merzbow sitting in front of his laptop for and hour recently?

Most exp/PE/noise shows were quite entertaining in the 80s -have you seen a live TG video? If not, there's plenty to dl on slsk... In fact, a lot of violence was to be witnessed on the stage itself, with GP Orridge doing crazy stuff and Cosey more or less having sex live. Not to speak about what SPK did with their autopsy films (not even videos, it was a long time ago ;-)

So: are actual fights nice? That's a strange question to ask when you think about it: is physical violence towards someone else EVER a good thing? Is it EVER a good way to express yourself?

This question just makes me think about peoples reaction to NON (the band, I mean) or Richard Ramirez disgusting imagery. My reaction to it is very simple: I never bought his records, I never will and if I was faced any kind of nazi or otherwise disgusting and stupid imagery, I'd just leave the show -not angry at the artist, because that's not the point, but I'm not going to be part of any of this, ever.

So my opinion on this would be kinda simple: how can any artist think funny or even 'artistic' people are fighting because of his shows? Not only I think it's stupid but it's really nothing new or special (see the Vienna Actionnists, that was in the sixties...)

If I appear a lame hippy, that's fine by me, that's not what I am but at least it's a lot better than being seen as a violent and testosterone-full piggish bastard.

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posted by: ddn+ on 2006-02-11 05:21:32
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Most exp/PE/noise shows were quite entertaining in the 80s -have you seen a live TG video? If not, there's plenty to dl on slsk... In fact, a lot of violence was to be witnessed on the stage itself, with GP Orridge doing crazy stuff and Cosey more or less having sex live. Not to speak about what SPK did with their autopsy films (not even videos, it was a long time ago ;-)

Yeah, that's back when the whole Industrial thing was an actual art movement, you had the muzak, you had the video-art, you had the peformance-art, you had the attitude.....those were the days..

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posted by: R-23 on 2006-02-11 06:15:09
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If in fact those were the days (which I'm not that sure of) the funny thing is almost no-one actually WAS there to realize it :-)

and come on, R-23 there's still a lot of interesting stuff going on today, even if I think a long-haired Japanese middle-aged man in front of a i-book surrounded by 120db of noise isn't something interesting... And Whitehouse still rock, people say.

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posted by: ddn+ on 2006-02-13 02:32:38
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And Whitehouse still rock, people say.

When they decide to follow through and actually put on a performance.

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posted by: BLANK on 2006-02-13 05:37:34
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